The Last Ditch by Tom Paine

THE LAST DITCH

What Would a Free Society Look Like?

Published by Tom

on

What Would a Free Society Look Like? : The Freeman : Foundation for Economic Education

The linked essay is a good honest summary and highlights our dilemma. The bad guys have a clear, seductive vision of a "better society". We, being either more honest or less delusional, don't. We can point to previous "better societies" that turned out rather worse than their promoters promised; Nazi Germany, the USSR, Cuba, North Korea and so forth. "Ah but", say today's visionaries, "they did not have us to lead them". If the vision is seductive enough (life, without effort; equality, without poverty) and the visionary is neither bald of pate nor crude of expression and manages to keep most of his ugliness on the inside, the people will tend to go for it.

For those who are prepared to apply themselves, some clarity is clearly possible. But this is a democracy and, let's face it, most of our fellow citizens are not applying themselves at all.

21 responses to “What Would a Free Society Look Like?”

  1. Moggsy Avatar
    Moggsy

    Tom, a really interesting essay. What would a free society look like? A real mix I would guess.
    But you know I do think Second Life could be looked at as a maybe a simulation/example? Certainly of a society with very few rules imposed.
    Is it really right to have signs up banning furrys and vampires? Well so very many vamps will try to predate on a person, but even so you could just ban biting.
    The thing is it is land owners imposing rules like that. It would be possible to buy an island and try a libertarian sim.
    People are free to vote with their feet in sl.

    Like

    Reply
  2. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    If people are free to vote with their feet, does anything go?

    Like

    Reply
  3. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    I don’t think there is much justification for the superior tone – where is the evidence that you ever think beyond your prejudices?

    Like

    Reply
  4. Tom Avatar
    Tom

    There are many years’ worth of writing here in which I try to share my evolving thinking about the world and stimulate a discussion. It’s not for me to say if I exhibit prejudice. I hope not. I certainly haven’t made derogatory comments here on account of anyone’s age or (supposed) class origins, as you have on occasion.
    If the “prejudice” you want me to overcome is that against your violent plan of using the state to rob your fellow men to support you in idleness, I fear it’s not going to happen. Sorry.

    Like

    Reply
  5. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    When you write about the law/civil liberties you are an interesting advocate of important freedoms.
    When you write about economics you seem to be entirely ignorant, and it doesn’t seem to me that you have the energy left in you to challange your own prejudices . Yes. I want you to think aout why I might be saying what I am sYing without supposing me o be a violent lunatic.
    I am not a violent lunatic. I am a normal person who was initially attracted to libertarianism/market narchism but who realised that there were people who would never agree to it and hat the idea was therefore unsustainable.
    I’m someone who has changed their position several times in response o th arguments of others – I get th feeling hat ou don’t have he potntial to do the same.

    Like

    Reply
  6. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    Have I made a derogatory statemnt about someones clas origins?

    Like

    Reply
  7. Tom Avatar
    Tom

    Yes for example
    “Perhaps you’ve been spending too much time with the staff?”
    “…arrogant old men and their spoiled daughters”
    http://www.thelastditch.org/2012/06/economics.html

    Like

    Reply
  8. Tom Avatar
    Tom

    You are not a violent lunatic. You are a consistent and unashamed advocate of state violence to enforce your world view on your fellow man. Your every political and economic point tends to forcible redistribution of wealth. You are not extreme as Maoists as you are prepared to leave the productive with much of their earnings, provided you and your friends can extort a minimum income from them for nothing, But once the moral principle is conceded that redistribution of wealth is acceptable, the demands will never stop.
    Every society that has adopted this approach (including ours) has decreased its productivity by focussing people on a political struggle for a share of the pie, rather than an economic struggle to make humanity wealthier.
    Having created a gangster state that can be used to redistribute at will to its cronies and payroll voters, the question is how to we put it back under control. There is a moral limit to democracy. If I persuaded the winning party at the next election to promise an “Abolition of Mark Act” in its manifesto, that would not justify your eventual elimination in my eyes. Would it in yours? To be intellectually consistent, I think you must answer yes.
    We are disagreeing where the moral boundary of state power lies, You clearly don’t think it has yet been reached. I think it was passed decades ago. A majority of British voters probably agree with you, because in their economic ignorance, they think that money is a creation of the State (as opposed to a system of exchange of real underlying value dangerously and badly administered by the state) and can be handed out at will to them.
    I fear the only way out of this mess is for the economy to collapse under the weight of our ideological absurdity and be built again. From a humane point of view I try to advocate a less violent and messy transition. I would rather our children did not have to live through such dangerous times.

    Like

    Reply
  9. Moggsy Avatar
    Moggsy

    How do; “If people are free to vote with their feet” and “does anything go?” connect up or follow on? Not really clear what point you are trying to make?
    “Anything” absolutely does not go – theft as an example. Nor can anyone have my money or stuff, unless I agree to it, or agree in advance to rules that might result in my rp character being robbed of goods and sim money.
    There are lots of places seem to get by, at least partly, on voluntary donations from users.
    Generally many “lifestyles” and sims do go and can be found.
    I saw you made a comment “initially attracted to libertarianism/market narchism but who realised that there were people who would never agree to it and hat the idea was therefore unsustainable.”
    You do realise your so-called reason does not stand up?
    No idea philosophy or religion ever has universal acceptance. There will always be people who would never agree to almost anything.
    By your own reason you should give up your plans for taking peoples money, as I for one, will never agree with it ^_^
    You know I figure you never ever really had any libertarian leanings, you are way to authoritarian to, just a false front.

    Like

    Reply
  10. Moggsy Avatar
    Moggsy

    Tom Pleeeease get rid of that “capcha” thingy it is SOOOO annoying

    Like

    Reply
  11. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    It’s a problem if you the basis of your philosophy is “no-force” and therefore agreement.
    I’m not claiming to base my plans on the principle of no-force – I’m basing it on the principle of minimum force.
    If you don’t like that, when I am King, I shall feel sorry for you, do my best to accomodate you – but at the nd of the day, if you don’t like other people having the right to eat or live in a house, I’m afraid it is tough titties.
    And really… what are you disagreeing with? The idea that people should have a right to some small morsel of dignity…

    Like

    Reply
  12. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    That isn’t a comment about class origins… is it?

    Like

    Reply
  13. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    Hmmm… ok… so you are essentially playing the role of keeping the overton window from shifting too far to the left?
    I suppose someone has to.
    I’m playing the role of advocating the best policy which exists within the window.
    I guess agreement isn’t really on the agenda.
    I would say productivity, in terms of hours worked, has decreased due to the need for work.
    Where the value-added by labour is unclear, workers very rarely have a motive to improve their productivity.

    Like

    Reply
  14. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    I think the system will collapse – and that eventully something very similar to Communism which will lead to the withering of the state.
    The only question is whether it is happy, ferrari driving communism or sad gulag communism.

    Like

    Reply
  15. Andrew Avatar
    Andrew

    It’ll be a sad day when dignity comes from state handouts.

    Like

    Reply
  16. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    It’s truely sad that dignity supposedly comes from the soul -crushing tedium of work.
    I can accept that work may be a necessary evil – but can we stop pretending that people need to waste half their lives performing repetitive tasks before they can be considered fully human?

    Like

    Reply
  17. Andrew Avatar
    Andrew

    “but can we stop pretending that people need to waste half their lives performing repetitive tasks before they can be considered fully human?”
    You don’t like Tom’s superior tone, you don’t like libertarians’ righteousness, yet you come out with crap like this.
    I’m done with you.

    Like

    Reply
  18. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    Thank you for your valuable contribution.

    Like

    Reply
  19. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    Tom, read this:
    http://mises.org/journals/scholar/hasnas.pdf

    Like

    Reply
  20. Tom Avatar
    Tom

    I have, and enjoyed/admired it. Would you like to summarise it here as a series of guest posts?

    Like

    Reply
  21. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    I would be happy to try and do it justice Tom but I’m afraid I am rather busy with job and new baby at the moment. Could I perhaps postpone until a quieter time? I’ve been enjoying your recent replies on the comment threads btw

    Like

    Reply

Leave a reply to Andrew Cancel reply

Your blogger

Tom is a retired international lawyer. He was a partner in a City of London law firm and spent almost twenty years abroad serving clients from all over the world.

Returning to London on retirement in 2011, he was dismayed to discover how much liberty had been lost in the UK while he was away.

He’s a classical liberal (libertarian, if you must) who, like his illustrious namesake, considers that

“…government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one.”

Socials
    Subscribe

    Receive content by email

    Latest comments
    1. Lord T's avatar
    2. tom.paine's avatar
    3. Lord T's avatar
    4. tom.paine's avatar
    5. Lord T's avatar
    Recent posts