THE LAST DITCH

I have been taken to task by readers here for over-generalising in my last post in which I referred to; 

…the depths of ignorance, prejudice and hate-addled envy that now characterise most of the British people…

I would love to agree with my critics but the only places I encounter any other kind of Brit are this blog and others like it. Envy-free Brits who applaud commercial success and desire more of it (for anyone other than themselves) do appear to be in a tiny – or at least uninfluential – minority. In newspapers, on television and radio and even most blogs my countrymen seem obsessed with having the state "do something" about this, that and the other; the "something" usually being to punish anyone who has more wealth than them. And their views are expressed so intemperately that it seems quite reasonable to me to infer that they are driven by hate.

I had the misfortune to hear some "talk radio" during a recent cab ride. Vox populi seemed so far from vox dei as to make me fear it had become vox diaboli. Everyone has an opinion about issues (such as lawful tax structuring) that they could not even adequately define. This does not prevent them from campaigning against it by harassing hapless employees of companies they have decided, with a confidence entirely untrammelled by knowledge or understanding, to condemn. Is that not ignorance? Is that not hatred?

Perhaps talk radio is unrepresentative? I suspect that it may be evidence only of the damage caused by educationalists who, under the banner of "self esteem" have drilled into the masses that all viewpoints, however barmy, are of equal value. Part of what I find most irritating about the England I have returned to after twenty years away is not that more people are stupid, but that they are now so confidently stupid. They don't even have enough intelligence to know that they are thick. They might not know what global warming or tax avoidance means, but by God they will have their say. Maybe, optimistically, my impressions are mistaken. Perhaps it's just that the ignorant are now more confident than others about expressing their views?

This might all be harmlessly amusing were the consequences not so serious. Even a Chancellor of the Exchequer who probably privately believes in a free society and free market is obliged to feed the envy-trolls from lack of electoral fortitude. Even his, supposedly, free-enterprise supporting party rabbits on about the moral degeneracy of those who lawfully structure their affairs so as to minimise the state's depredations. Clearly the Tory Party shares my dim view of the average Brit's capabilities. What else can it mean when it prefers to pander to stupid views rather than to persuade people they are wrong?

Gentle readers, I want to believe well of my fellow-men. I really do. But where – except among yourselves – can I find the evidence to support that belief?

83 responses to “Le vice Britannique”

  1. Robert the Biker Avatar
    Robert the Biker

    While you are perfectly correct, the problem is that the ‘people’ to whom you refer come in two or three flavours:
    1. The congenitally thick who believe it is their’right’ to have a home and income from the taxpayer and who feel no shame in being a third generation dole sponger.
    2. The poorly educated mass who have come out of years of schooling unfit for the real world and who somehow feel this is the fault of someone else. To an extent they are right about this, but it’s not Starbucks who are to blame.
    3. The brainless who follow the lefty luvvie screeds without either questioning or indeed much understanding them.
    People who follow blogs and make even moderately usefull and infoemed comments do not fall into these categories; they also tend to be so disgusted with the MSM that they have nothing to do with them.

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  2. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    Surely the congenitally thick (disabled?) have more of a right to an income and home than the congenitally greedy do to their millions.
    I don’t see any evidence that the followers of this blog are any less ignorant than the general population, or that in their following nasty, righty screeds, they are any less brainless.
    Is there not a test or something?

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  3. Robert the Biker Avatar
    Robert the Biker

    This is exactly the sort of teeth chipping envy of betterment being complained about.
    The’ congenitally greedy’ my arse; since when should the successful have to apologise for their success? Since when was it enobleing to be a feckless parasite? And no, ‘Thick’ and ‘Disabled’ are not the same.

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  4. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    Despite the never ending litany of complaints with respect to the current economic/political organisation of society, the residents of this comment section seem to somehow magically assume that the successful will always and everywhere have been successful by providing valuable service to consumers, shareholders, the world in general.
    Ordinary people, not blinded by mad rightism, see bosses paid more and more as their companies go bankrupt – bailed out by the tax that we are now being told can’t be spent on the poor.
    If it isn’t enobliing to be a feckless parasite, surely it is positively evil to be an (often enobled) highly intelligent one.

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  5. Henry Crun Avatar
    Henry Crun

    Society fulfils its obligations in looking after the widows, the orphans, the sick and the lame. As far as I’m concerned, the lazy can piss off.
    Typical politics of envy comments from Mark who, I suspect, rejoices in the left’s celebration of mediocrity and derision of the successful.

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  6. Peter Whale Avatar
    Peter Whale

    I like the term “confidently stupid” it does convey the problem.
    Mark chooses ignorance of the fact that it is the average private worker that bears the brunt of the feckless payout.

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  7. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    If by “celebration of mediocrity” you mean “not crushing people who aren’t Steve Jobs or Bob Diamond” then yes, I would rejoice in it.
    On the other hand I don’t agree with the derision of the successfull. I’m one of the few people who supports successful benefit scroungers – if you respect those who manipulate thevsystem at the top, why not respect those who do the same at the bottom?

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  8. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    Peter – not unaware of that – at the moment the average working person is supremely pissed off with both exploiters at the top and scroungers at the bottom.
    The inhabitants here couldn’t care less about the exploiters and think anyone who does must be stupid, but at the same time would kill the scroungers. Seems to me to be a worship of power.
    Personally, i don’t care about either. I don’t think it will cost us much (certainly nothing more than we already spend) to support the feckless and that since there would be other advatanges to providing everyone with a basic income, we should do so. Let the ruthless rich be distracted by their money – stops thm from getting p to more damaging mischief.

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  9. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    I’ve just watched a television show featuring a woman whose clothes were worth £140,000.
    I’m inclined to let them waste their money – but if it must be a choice between taxing such a person or cutting the money of the poor, then I say tax.

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  10. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    Btw.. just the clothes she happened to be wearing…

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  11. Suboptimal Planet Avatar

    “bailed out by the tax that we are now being told can’t be spent on the poor.”
    Libertarians don’t believe in bailouts.
    “the residents of this comment section seem to somehow magically assume that the successful will always and everywhere have been successful by providing valuable service to consumers, shareholders, the world in general.”
    I don’t know what it means to provide a valuable service to ‘the world in general’, but I don’t think anyone has a moral obligation to do this.
    In a truly capitalist society it would be very difficult for companies to turn a profit without offering something of value to customers.
    It will always be possible for some employees/directors to dupe their employers/shareholders into paying them more than they deserve, but they’re less likely to get away with this in a highly competitive environment.
    In a free society there would be people who are rich purely as a result of luck, e.g. a hefty inheritance. I don’t know whether such people count as ‘successful’, but they no more deserve our resentment and envy than people who are naturally beautiful, athletic or intelligent.
    Gains are only ill-gotten when they are acquired through force or fraud.

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  12. Suboptimal Planet Avatar

    “the money of the poor”
    You seem to assume that the money rightfully belongs to the poor.
    What have they done to deserve it?
    And if we’re going to give handouts, why give a penny to relatively poor people in Britain while there are millions of absolutely poor people in other countries.

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  13. Henry Crun Avatar
    Henry Crun

    By “celebrating mediocrity” I mean not being a drone that follows blindly what they are fed by the MSM (cf. current hoohah over tax avoidance which isn’t tax avoidance at all because you can’t pay tax if it isn’t owed).
    Let us remember it wasn’t the current government that bailed out the banks but it is the current one having to deal with the fallout (cf repayment of mortgage interest to Nothern Rock mortgage holders)

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  14. Henry Crun Avatar
    Henry Crun

    How do you know that they aren’t already taxed?
    Typical socialist attitude – I can’t afford to spend £140k on clothes therefore no one should.

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  15. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    Yes, yes, “Peace, bread and land”, when the capitalist society arrives all will be well – in the mean time, libertarians seem rather more concerned with benefits for the poor than the institutional advantages enjoyed by the rich.
    Competitiveness itself doesn’t reduce abuses of power – being a medieval king was incredibly competitive as is being a Mexican drug baron – it depends entirely on how victory is judged, the social structure in which the competiton takes place. The problemwith corporate governence is not a lack of competition – it is a lack of power for shareholders (or rather that institutional shareholders have too much power).
    There is no society which does not rely on force, there is no way that anyone can become rich without society and there is no way that libertarian objections to “force” are anything other than hypocritical wheedling to those with power.

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  16. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    It strikes me as an incredibly illiberal position to say that we must do something for others in order to “deserve” to live.
    Good question…

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  17. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    I’m sure they are… but if you are telling me that protecting a womans right to wear more on her back than a lot of working people make in 10 years is more important than someone eating, having shelter, etc, etc. I think you are nothing but a power worshipping mad man.

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  18. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    I think the current hoohah about tax avoidance is incredibly stupid and besides the point – essentially political cover for a government determined to crush the poor – so I guess I don’t rejoice in mediocrity!
    However, I also think that the “libertarian” position that we should crush the poor, promote the rich… and anyone who disagrees is an idiot … is… pretty idiotic.
    That’s true, but I don’t see the current government trying to do anything interesting with the publiclly owned banks. Still more money for the fat cats

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  19. Suboptimal Planet Avatar

    “It strikes me as an incredibly illiberal position to say that we must do something for others in order to “deserve” to live”
    The libertarian position here strikes me as entirely just (and liberal, when that word is properly understood).
    Everyone deserves to live … at their own expense. Nobody has a right to take another person’s life, but neither do they have a duty to sustain it.
    Imagine an island with two families on it. Family A, cognisant of their scarce resources, chooses to have 2 children. Family B recklessly opts for 10 children, who they then struggle to feed. Family A may take some pity on Family B, especially the children, but it seems perverse to say that they have a duty to provide for them.
    If you take the view that the very fact of one’s existence creates a duty on the part of others to sustain you, it seems very strange for this imperative to stop at national borders.

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  20. Suboptimal Planet Avatar

    “I also think that the “libertarian” position that we should crush the poor, promote the rich… is… pretty idiotic.”
    Libertarians don’t believe that anyone should be crushed, except in self defence.
    If someone wants to use their own money to ‘promote’ the rich (or the poor, or anyone in between), that’s their business. If they wan’t to use other people’s money, confiscated by force, that’s a problem.

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  21. MickC Avatar
    MickC

    Bit late to this one..
    One of Mark’s comments is spot on (or in other words agrees with my views/prejudices).
    The normal “man in the street/on the Clapham omnibus” is fed up with scroungers at both the top and the bottom taking the piss. However, as he is probably nearer to the bottom than the top, he is more tolerant of the bottom. Those at the top should know better and certainly have the intelligence to do better without being scroungers.
    Some the rest of his stuff is bollocks though-if some clown of a woman chooses to dress like a pantomime horse in (allegedly) £140k’s worth of schmatter well that’s her choice and the sellers good luck. bet she wouldn’t get half a crown for the stuff if she wanted to sell it!

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  22. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    “In newspapers, on television and radio and even most blogs my countrymen seem obsessed with having the state “do something” about this, that and the other; the “something” usually being to punish anyone who has more wealth than them. ”
    I think it is very difficult for the average person to go against the received wisdom of the media and political elite. Talking to friends and acquaintances in the pub I find they reach reasonably liberal conclusions when talking one to one, but in a group the result is very different because people say what they think they are expected to say. It is quite rare in my experience to run into a genuine socialist believer.

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  23. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    “I think that the “libertarian” position that we should crush the poor, promote the rich… and anyone who disagrees is an idiot … is… pretty idiotic.”
    This is not the liberal position

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  24. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    “It strikes me as an incredibly illiberal position to say that we must do something for others in order to “deserve” to live.”
    Not providing material support to other people (obviously) does not equate to saying that those people do not deserve to live.
    On the other hand it seems an incredibly illiberal position (in the true sense of the word) to say that some people must be forced to subsidise and essentially be enslaved by some other people.

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  25. David Davis Avatar

    Agree totally with that analysis. I think, also, that the damage is mortal and cannot now be undone painlessly.

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  26. David Davis Avatar

    When discussing matters such as these with perfectly ordinarily intelligent people, often in higher or further education or having come from those, it is depressing to relate how often I am interrupted by the phrase (or a variant):-
    “But it said on the television that…” ….

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  27. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    How does socialism win the battle of “should” so easily? I think it is because it is the only political movement advocating a “should”. There is no liberalism, and conservatism is only “should not”.

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  28. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    Conservatism has no overarching ethical system. It is only opposed to change.This means it is always on the back foot and as such is a hopeless defender of freedom.

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  29. Moggsy Avatar
    Moggsy

    Robert talks sense. People in the UK have all been told for decades that every opinion is eually valid, every lifestyle and culture equally valid. Spelling is not as important as creativity. Competitive sport is bad. History is Hitler and WWII. From most every state organ. So more and more people come to believe it and this is the result. You expect something else?
    Mark, I don’t like to be mean but I do think you are a fully signed up product of that.
    You know when they say something like “congenital idiot” they are just expressing an opinion, not deliberately insulting genuine disabled people. So don’t be a donky and pretend you don’t. It’s not clever, no one is laughing.
    I think this discouraging people from striving for the best and to be the best they can is real child abuse when done to kids at school, just as bad as some pervert touching them, maybe worse, because it turns them into loosers for life. So there.

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  30. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    “If by “celebration of mediocrity” you mean “not crushing people who aren’t Steve Jobs or Bob Diamond” then yes, I would rejoice in it.”
    To crush someone or something requires the positive application of force. Not acting therefore cannot amount to crushing. “Not crushing” implies a lack of crushing. However by “not crushing” you mean the exact opposite of not acting. You are either confused or attempting to deceive.

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  31. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    If you say so.

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  32. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    No… Let’s imagine an island with 60 odd million people on it… where due to existing social structures, knowledge etc. it requires a relatively small proportion of total work done to feed everyone. Let’s also imagine that if we are allready planning on producing food for most people it will cost almost nothing to produce the extra for a few layabouts.
    Let’s also imagine that all of the work done by everyone is almost entirely due to inherited knowledge, social structures, existing machines and not our own “hard work”.
    In that case not giving food to layabouts amounts to use the machinery of society in such a way that everyone will be forced tonwork – despite the fact that this is not a physical neccessity.
    And I would say we do have some duty to sustain each other. What is the alternative? And yes, it is strange for it to stop at national borders – completely agree – but there are other practical problems with regards to that.

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  33. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    Spelling isn’t as important as creativity.

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  34. Henry Crun Avatar
    Henry Crun

    What that woman spends on her own back is entirely a matter for her and her conscience.
    I don’t worship power at all. However, I do think we are all responsible for our own selves and as I said in an earlier post we are responsible for looking after the widows, the or[hans, the sick and the lame…but I’ll be buggered if I’ll stick my hand in my pocket or have someone try and stick their hand in my pocket to support the bone idle.

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  35. Henry Crun Avatar
    Henry Crun

    Oh write, so if you were a book publisher employing some one to be an editer or a skool employing sumwon to be a teecher and there CV was riddled with speling mistayks, it woodent matter?

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  36. Suboptimal Planet Avatar

    “everyone will be forced to work – despite the fact that this is not a physical necessity.”
    I agree that it wouldn’t take very many workers to provide everyone in Britain with the bare essentials of life. The question remains: why should some be forced to work for the sake of the rest?
    I also suspect that you’d like to give the layabouts a higher standard of living than ‘bare essentials’. How do you decide where to draw the line?
    It’s true that accumulated knowledge and capital allows us to produce more with the same labour (or the same amount with less labour). But it doesn’t follow that people should expect something for nothing. Instead, it means that we don’t need to do very much in order to enjoy a more comfortable life than previous generations. Rather than suffering six long days of back-breaking labour each week to reach subsistence level, a few hours of comfortable work will now suffice.
    Those thousands of citizens idling about aren’t surplus to requirements. There’s plenty they could be doing to make life better for the rest of us, through voluntary exchange. There are roads to be fixed, gardens to be tended, cars to be washed, and streets to be cleaned. If that seems a bit too outdoorsy, there are plenty of tasks to be found on Amazon’s Mechanical Turk. Millions of people around the world would leap at the chance to do this work, but for some reason we pay our own citizens to lie idle.
    Idleness is a luxury, not a right.

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  37. Moggsy Avatar
    Moggsy

    Mark, It is – and more so – if you are putting together a letter to the bank manager or a CV, especially if the person receiving them can actually spell. Creativity is not so good in accountants or MPs filling out their expenses.

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  38. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    “in the mean time, libertarians seem rather more concerned with benefits for the poor than the institutional advantages enjoyed by the rich”
    Liberalism is the only truly radical political option available in the wake of the busted flush of communism. If you read much of the stuff written by liberal writers you will find they are extremely concerned with institutional advantages. Land ownership for example is one of the most vexing questions for liberals. Where socialism only offers a different force based society favouring different people, liberalism offers the truly radical alternative of voluntarism. Liberalism leads inexorably to anarchism.

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  39. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    “Let’s also imagine that all of the work done by everyone is almost entirely due to inherited knowledge, social structures, existing machines and not our own “hard work”.”
    Knowledge cannot be owned, evolved social structures are voluntary and therefore mutually beneficial, non voluntary (forced) social structures favour certain groups and so are invalid, existing machines and other capital are inherited in an entirely voluntary way and are therefore owned by their inheritors.

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  40. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    Thankyou for this comment. The libertarians around here seem excessively concerned about the benefits o the poor.
    For example, Tom is entirely in favour of taxation to pay for the rich man’s bond interest – yet tax for the poor man is somehow a moral abomination

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  41. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    Hmmmm… I think the idea that performing work is an absolute necessity in order to be considred a decent human (unless you are powerful) is a far greater threat to our freedom than anything else… especially greater than a few thousand lazy men going fishing.
    For example… the question, “why should some be forced to work for the rest” could very well be asked by a welfare scrounger to Ian Duncan Smith – or the other big wigs who spend their time however they please.
    Frankly… we have allready decided as a society that we will support those who won’t work. We don’t expect those who don’t work to starve, we don’t punish the stealing of food with death.
    As a libertarian, I believe we should establish the system which requires the least government intervention – a citizens income.
    As you identify, the question is how far this support should extend.
    As a lazy man, I believe quite far – you are free to disagree

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  42. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    Voluntary?
    So the social structures in the UK are invalid. Next!

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  43. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    I disagree.

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  44. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    I don’t like working. Please give me some money.

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  45. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    I was “forced” to lie for money today.
    If that in’t being crushed, I don’t know what is.

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  46. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    It is tax that is the problem, the recipient of tax is not relevant, unless it is everyone of course

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  47. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    Some are, some aren’t

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  48. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    In that case – there isn’t actually a problem in that particular respect with a tax for a universal benefit ? Surely Tom’s beliefs should be more objectionable to you than mine…
    Or are you still insisting that there are no degrees of ethical behaviour/that all things which are unpleasent are equally unpleasent?

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  49. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    I don’t know enough about the details of either your or Tom’s beliefs on tax to say which is more objectionable to me. I would guess that yours might be more objectionable because you don’t seem to care about process, whereas Tom does.
    From what I have read, Tom probably supports the spending of public money on things that are public goods. This is a rational and convincing argument where the benefits of tax and spend supposedly accrue to all in society via better provision of some things than the market can provide (although I do not subscribe to it myself). I don’t know what kind of taxation Tom supports. I suppose it is likely to be low and flat.
    From what I have read of your posts it seems you support a flat citizens income of some kind which I agree is better than spending on particular groups or projects if this is the only action that government takes. If there is still spending on particular groups and projects in addition to CI then I think the benefit would decrease proportionally. In terms of raising funds a logical and convincing way to fund CI would be a land value tax collecting unearned rent, based upon the historical injustice in land ownership. From what you have written so far I imagine you wouldn’t care how it was funded and might prefer to fund it in a way that would punish currently successful people which would have all of the same problems as the current tax collection model.
    In conclusion my impression is that I probably agree more Tom’s natural dislike of government spending and his resulting desire to limit the scope of what government can do than I agree with your seemingly unlimited desire to punish successful people. However I agree with you that there are large historical and ongoing injustices in the current system and as a political radical I do seek to correct these. I don’t know if I agree with you about how to correct them and I am fairly sure I disagree with you about the role and scope of government in doing so.

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  50. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    Imagine is certainly the right word, as that doesn’t bear any resemblance to anything I have written or what I think.
    I believe not only that we shouldn’t tax the rich to pay for the poor, but that it is impossible to do so. I also believe that people should be free to be rich to the same extent as the poor are able to ignore their wealth – hence citizens basic income.

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Tom is a retired international lawyer. He was a partner in a City of London law firm and spent almost twenty years abroad serving clients from all over the world.

Returning to London on retirement in 2011, he was dismayed to discover how much liberty had been lost in the UK while he was away.

He’s a classical liberal (libertarian, if you must) who, like his illustrious namesake, considers that

“…government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one.”

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