THE LAST DITCH

The lethal medical arrogance behind the Liverpool Care Pathway | Melanie Phillips.

Melanie Phillips, not my favourite journalist, has been writing about the "Liverpool Care Pathway." Something Goebbelish about the name of this route to death is enough to make decent people suspicious, but that's modern Britain for you; all marketing mouth and no trousers.

My point is not about the "pathway" itself, but the response from the medical profession to Phillips' criticism of how it is sometimes misused. The arrogance is disturbing but unsurprising. During 20 years of living abroad, Mrs P and I had occasion to use the services of doctors from time to time. We were always pleasantly struck by the difference in their approach to that of their colleagues in Britain. They did not give "orders", they discussed our issues. They looked at us while they did so. They gave us time and treated us with respect. They did not dish out government propaganda and were not subject to government incentive schemes to adopt particular approaches. In short, they treated us like I treated my clients.

At the French-run Moscow clinic we used for a while, an NHS trained doctor came to work. She lasted a few weeks before being dismissed at the request of patients. She treated patients as so much meat, did not give them time or listen properly to what they had to say. Worst of all (and inexplicable to patients with no experience of Britain's Soviet-style healthcare) she reached for some kind of NHS manual for guidance as to approved treatment. Her patients expected more than that. They wanted to see the exercise of intelligent, professional judgement based on reasoned discussion. They didn't want judgements handed down from Mount Olympus by a self-appointed god. 

The NHS is a state monopoly enterprise. As such things will, it has steadily morphed into a worker's co-operative. The interests of staff take precedence over those of the customers-with-no-choice and the attitude to said customers tends to the dismissive. That's inevitable, because of the moral darkness at its heart; it is funded by force. The good opinion of patients is therefore not required. Promotion within the organisation depends upon contribution to its own goals, not those of the sick people it exists to serve. They are indeed routinely and insultingly described by NHS aparatchiks as a "cost" to the NHS, though they – collectively – pay for it.

There's nothing wrong with these medics that would not be fixed by exposure to competition and the humility it brings. You may say that they already have competition from the private health care industry but that's not really true. The doctors in private hospitals are overwhelmingly NHS consultants earning a bit on the side. Their primary source of income – and pension – is the state monopoly. They are with few exceptions trained by that monopoly and imbued with its stale ethic. If the system were fully private, they would have to provide A&E services, but instead they just offer a luxury add-on. I am fully privately-insured, but if I have an accident I will end up in the NHS's tender care. There is no way out of that in Britain.

It is indeed "our NHS" as the Tories feebly insist. I wish it bloody wasn't.

146 responses to “All organisations funded by force are immoral – Part 2: the NHS”

  1. Tom Avatar

    Its customers are the investors. If it’s as you say, it’s their problem and one to take up contractually. I doubt the assets are just “sitting around” as much as I doubt you have the remotest concept of how collective investment works. If you are able to make the judgement you wrote here, maybe you should apply for the job. Thanks for the new insult. Originality and variety relieves the tedium.

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  2. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    No, I don’t understand all the legal and administrative ins-and-outs of collective investments – but I’m pretty certain we could find someone who understands these things for less than a million pounds a year.
    Kate Garratt Cox hasn’t been hired because of her administrative or legal competence – she has been hired as an investor and as such, it is very easy for anybody to see, the results.
    That is the joy of investment management – it very clearly shows the fallacy that high pay is always or even generally a reward for high performance.

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  3. Tom Avatar

    It's literally none of your business. Whatever she is paid and whether or not she deserves it, it costs you nothing. So bag up your envy and get on with life. Actually, I have a suggestion for you. I happen to have a contact with one of the biggest fishing clubs in the country. Would you like me to enquire about a job for you as a fishing warden? It would be honest work doing something you love and might help you stop obsessing about what other people earn.

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  4. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    “Everyone owns everything equally” is a political ethic that can be applied universally. It favours nobody. If you decide that you want to use the nice car I have sitting outside my house and don’t return it I can decide to move into the house you currently inhabit, accidentally leave the gas on, and cause it to explode. Nobody is at fault because we all own everything equally. On the other hand an ethic of “Everyone should have x” cannot be applied universally because someone is deciding what everyone else should do. In such a system “everyone should have x” cannot be proposed by any person, only by some people. It is therefore not a universally applicable political ethic. It is instead a might makes right ethic where some rule over the rest.

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  5. Moggsy Avatar
    Moggsy

    I do agree with your comment that it is not Mark’s business. But I guess he figures it ought to be his mone if he could get his hands (in a collective stylie)on it.
    It is unfortunately a fact that there are certain people who figure everyone’s business should be theirs, and who want to make people do things how they want, especially if they dissaprove of them in some way. People who don’t recognise a persons right to the rewards of their own smarts and talents and risks. Or peoples own property. The must be jelous mot all the time.
    I do think from what he says Mark is one of those people.

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  6. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    I don’t understand what you mean by “applied universally”.
    You say things can’t be applied universally if someone is deciding what everyone else must do, but surely that would be exactly the same with equal ownership.
    I think that by “applied universally” you mean everyone agrees to the policy?
    Not sure that is ever going to happen.

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  7. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    I do think that you are the target for Tom’s rhetorical tricks… not me.

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  8. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    Universality means everyone subject to the same rules, essential for any coherent political ethic. Some people proposing what some other people should be able to have and do is obviously not an example of a universal ethic because only some people get to decide the rules. To achieve universality either everyone has to be able to trample on everyone else’s property and choices to exactly the same extent (the communist ethic), or everyone is fully entitled to the natural property they have in their person and labour and is justified in defending this property against agression.

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  9. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    “So you think that rules which dictate that we should/must support each other are contrary to the physical laws of reality?”
    Government or any other group demanding that we support “each other” with the threat of force is morally inconsistent since it requires rulers and ruled and does not apply equally to everyone. It is the rule of force. A person demanding support down the barrel of a gun does not need support. Support freely given is a completely different thing.
    The demands of those supported by the productive in society often are contrary to physical reality: demands for certain living standards for all being a good example where the desired forcible levelling of living standards destroys the capacity to generate those living standards in the first place.

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  10. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    No, I’m sorry, that doesn’t make sense.
    You seem to be saying that Communism or natural property are “natural systems” which exist without anyone having to make a decision and are therefore universal because no-one is imposing their will on anyone else. Firstly, I don’t see any reason to believe that these are natural unlike any other system, and secondly, even if they were, in practice I don’t think that the systems you describe could operate without “might” coming in to play.

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  11. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    If that is a genuine offer it is very kind of you.
    The reason why I mention her pay is not because I am jealous of it, or even because I want to take it away from her. I agree – it doesn’t affect my life and I’m actually glad that we have a relatively harmless avenue in which the ruthless ambitions of highly intelligent bandits can be diverted.
    The reason why I mention her pay is to show that in our society, as stated above, pay is not really linked to productivity. If it is possible to become rich by winning a game of little benefit to anyone else, why shouldn’t it be possible to give each person a stipend not linked to production?
    As for your offer, thankyou. Unfortunately, “fishing” here is figurative – I simply mean “things we enjoy”. I enjoy fishing, but I’m certainly no expert (I go once a year or so with family members or friends who know what they are doing), so am pretty sure I wouldn’t be qualified for the job you mention.
    Finally, even if I had a job I loved, it wouldn’t stop me from remembering that there are many who don’t love their jobs. It wouldn’t stop me from remembering that the current system is actually a means of trying to force those who don’t enjoy work, to do it, for as low a wage as possible. If I had a million pounds, I wouldn’t stop thinking about these things and if I had a billion I’d think of nothing else. So, I thank you for your offer, but I have to say I find the implication that a good job should stop us from thinking slightly worrying.

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  12. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    And why do you think that, Mark?

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  13. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    Also please note that I am arguing that the two examples above share the property of universality, not naturality. Your criticism is therefore misapplied. Did you not comprehend the point being made? You seem to do this quite a lot.

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  14. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    ” Some people proposing what some other people should be able to have and do is obviously not an example of a universal ethic because only some people get to decide the rules”
    So where do the acceptable rules, the communist or property based ones, come from? Everyone decides them, or they exist outside of the decision making process?

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  15. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    I’m not especially renowned for missing the point, maybe you need to take a bit more effort with your explanation.
    As far as I can see, a condition of universality in an ethical system is that you should not be subject to the decisions of others.
    You haven’t explained why a man living in a communist or libertarian state wouldn’t be subject to the decisions of others, why it is fundamentally different to say “you own this”, “you own everything” or “you own what is naturally yours.”.

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  16. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    I’m sure, but I’m not suggesting such a forcible levelling of living standards – and for the five millionth time, I’m not suggesting getting rid of the market either. I’m suggesting formalising the existing system, in which if neccesary we use force to prevent people from starving, without the mean spiritedness, or the complex bureacracy, or the attempt to force people to make genuflections to the myth of productivity.
    So I don’t think there is any reason to assume that what I am suggesting is against physical reality.
    Is it contrary to reason or moral consistency? Well, if reality is contrary to reason, I think we might well ask what the value of reason is.
    I think you are assuming here that communism or natural property rights based systems are morally consistent because they do not require a hierachy, do not require people to obey decisions made by others. This can only be true if the system itself somehow exists outside of the human decision making process.
    Otherwise, a system in which everyone owns everything, or they own the fruits of their toil, or they are each entitled to a loaf of bread, or they owe everything to their God, King or Chief, are all equally arbitrary, each based on the decision of some people and as such, none can be deemed, by your definition of the term to be “universal”.
    Personally, I don’t think there can be any way that a social system can exist outside of human decision making processes, so your criticism doesn’t really make sense to me

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  17. Moggsy Avatar
    Moggsy

    Mark, If you go fishing with a friend you will be in a good mood and maybe nicer to people, if you drink a pint you are keeping the landlord his staff the brewer and the local council and the government in positive cash flow – PROVIDED you pay for it with money you earned, won or inherited.
    If you do it with money I earned then you are making the world worse because you stop me shopping with my friend so you can have your fun.
    And Mark, if it can be done by a machine better it usually is, something to do with this thing called the industrial revolution.
    If someone else is forced to work so you can do it then, sorry but that does does make you a parasite, you are preying on others by proxy. If you vote for it then it is intentional and that is low down.

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  18. Moggsy Avatar
    Moggsy

    Come on Mark – really? The proceeds of gambling is not a wage (except in some odd situations) or “pay” in thr accepted sense. In the straw person sense it might be 🙂
    Pay is only partly related to productivity your trying to claim it is is wrong. Pay is mostly related to the value placed by whoever is doing the paying on the work done and that is tied in to it’s scarcity.
    And don’t give me your rehtorical tricks comment. I can spot fallacious logic when it is waved in front of me wherever it comes from np.

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  19. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    Oh God… the game I was referring to was the game of working your way up the ladder, gaining power over assets/capital/other people’s labour. I think the context makes that pretty clear.
    So not a “straw man”, but a failure to read with comprehension.
    I just think the second paragraph you’ve written there is incredibly confused. What do you think I am claiming and what are you disagreeing with?
    In this case, they are paying themselves and unsurprisingly find themselves to be tremendouly valuable.
    Final paragraph – if you say so.

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  20. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    When the government takes money from you, it is a tax. If the government were to give money to you, it would be the opposite of a tax. It would be more or less the same as a tax cut.
    What I am suggesting is a tax cut (to the extent of negative taxation for some).
    Now, would we have to raise other taxes to counteract this tax cut? It depends on the amount of money flying around and the productive capacity of the economy.
    What it does not (or should not) depend on is a “balanced budget” or other such nonsensical notions.
    So would you be worse off if this policy were instituted? It depends on the extent to which production fell or consumption by others increased. I suspect that neither would change by much and that you would therefore not have to pay a great deal for such a policy. You might of course have to reduce your consumption to some extent, but I think other advantages would make this worthwhile.

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  21. Moggsy Avatar
    Moggsy

    Well I guess that will teach me to read more carefully sometimes. I took it as two seperate things, break it into paragraphs or something do please.
    But to be really honest some of what you say seems to make such little sense it is difficult to figure how you get where you are positionally, or why, or wjust hat you mean.
    I guess you would think the second para makes no sense, but I figure that is more your outlook than the 2nd Para’s fault.

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  22. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    “As far as I can see, a condition of universality in an ethical system is that you should not be subject to the decisions of others.”
    And you claim not to be prone to missing the point? Obviously in the communist political ethic, everyone is subject to the decisions of everyone else at all times.

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  23. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    “So where do the acceptable rules, the communist or property based ones, come from? Everyone decides them, or they exist outside of the decision making process?”
    Who decides the ethical system you subscribe to?

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  24. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    Hmmmm… so essentially you are saying that we must have “natural” god given laws, or we can have no laws at all?
    I don’t see why “everyone should have x” couln’t be a natural principle, why this requires one person to make a decision, but the other systems don’t.

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  25. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    Well the ethical system that I subscribe to is obviously decidec by me. The ethical system of society is decided by society – the complex interaction of individuals, culture and practical considerations.

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  26. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    If I broke it into paragraphs, then it would indicate I was talking about two seperate things, which is why I didn’t.
    If you have any questions, please go ahead.
    I really don’t understand what you are saying in the 2nd paragraph!

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  27. Moggsy Avatar
    Moggsy

    Mark, Often I think you really don’t seem to see things the same, what seems obvious, at least to me.
    But being fair, this time I was in a hurry, I re wrote part of it and had to post, or loose what I had done. I guess not checking properly. I knew what I was thinking ^_^
    So my point of view is that pay has a relationship with productivity – with other things thrown in.
    It depends on what “Productivity” means how you take it, your definitions seem not so mainstream sometimes, so I am meaning basically work done, or the monetary value of what is done/produced by that productivity
    It depends also on the value others place on a person’s skills/productivity.
    That depends on things like the person’s skill and the skill’s/abilitiy’s rarity. Rarity could be because of unique talent or difficulty of getting the skills/knowledge.
    Also it can depend on events, circumstances.
    People talk in ideas “shorthand”, sometimes they think they are meaning the same thing and they are not at all

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  28. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    Who is society? Does he have a mind, can he act, and can he meaningfully subscribe to a system of ethics?
    How do you feel if the ethical system you (are forced to) subscribe to is decided by someone else (me for example)?

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  29. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    “Hmmmm… so essentially you are saying that we must have “natural” god given laws, or we can have no laws at all?”
    Absolutely not. Think for a moment about the kind of rules freely choosing people are likely to choose. Game theory might help here. I have no problem if you choose to enslave yourself to someone else. But you aren’t likely to choose that unless everyone else’s choice is overruled, they are similarly enslaved, and you think you get more from the rules of the enslavement than they do, are you? Universal rules are of course the ones freely choosing people choose.
    “I don’t see why “everyone should have x” couln’t be a natural principle, why this requires one person to make a decision, but the other systems don’t.”
    People with more than x or the ability to generate more than x (or even the hope that they might one day get more than x) will never rationally choose that everyone should be furnished with x by force. To give everyone x you must take from people with more than x against their will. What do “natural” principles have to do with anything?

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  30. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    The point here Mark is that you will also choose either the ethic of self ownership or the ethic of mutual ownership given the choice, as long as everyone else is also able to choose freely.
    You will only ever choose that someone else make the choice for you if you feel you have a hand in influencing their choice (i.e. it is to an extent your choice) and/or everyone else’s choice is restricted.

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  31. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    Lets say I decide Mark works for me and gives me 95% of what he earns. I let him sleep in the garden shed. Is this good for you? Do we have a deal?

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  32. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    Contract also states no fishing trips or pub visits allowed (not that you would be able to afford it), work hours are 6am until 6pm, no breaks. Deal?

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  33. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    Do we have a deal Mark?

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  34. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    Of course not.

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  35. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    Why not?

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  36. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    You don’t agree because you feel the deal is unfavourable to you and you would be bitterly opposed and resisting if I forced such a system upon you, wouldn’t you?
    Why then should a government claiming to speak for some people (but obviously not me) be allowed to impose a similarly unfavourable deal on me and other people?
    Majority (might) does not make the imposition of force acceptable. If you are washed up on a desert island with 3 muscular gay rapists who decide to use you as a sex slave, are they entitled to do so since you and they comprise the “society” of the island and it is in the interests of the majority of the members of that society that you be repeatedly sexually abused for their pleasure?
    Please do answer this. It is important that I know where you draw the line and how you draw it.

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  37. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    OK, now that we have dealt with “universalism” let’s deal with force.
    I am the one saying that every society must at some level be based on force. You are the one disagreeing with this.
    My personal opinion is that we should try to create a system which requires a minimum of force by offering as far as possible, everyone an (at least) minimally acceptable deal.
    What this deal will be depends upon the culture we live in, but I think I have a fairly good idea of what will work in the UK.
    So, why should a government be allowed to impose something on you, in my opinion? Because the things they will be imposing are not similarly unfavourable to living in a shed, or banning you from pursuing your interests, or anally raping you. And because they are not similar to these things, they will not require the same degree of force to achieve. In fact, for the most part, taxation is so innocuous to not require any force at all. I’ve certainly never encountered any actual force from the taxman… have you?
    And of course the majority won’t necessarily choose the course which will result in the minimal use of force – which is why we require some institutional protection from counter productive mob madness. For example, most people would probably support putting the “work shy” into camps or something – completely stupid.
    Is it possible that I could find myself living in a society determined to do something entirely objectionable to me? Of course.
    Is that society likely to be the best possible society for the people living in it? I think not. American prison society (a society of gay rapists) is generally agreed to be hell for almost everyone living within it, which is why we should try and avoid societies like that.
    Rather than the impossible (and in practice entirely hypocritical) aim of eliminating force from society, we should be aiming to minimise it.
    Anyway, I ask you once again, where do your acceptable rules come from and what makes you think they don’t require force?

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  38. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    “And because they are not similar to these things, they will not require the same degree of force to achieve. In fact, for the most part, taxation is so innocuous to not require any force at all. I’ve certainly never encountered any actual force from the taxman… have you?”
    I am baffled Mark as to why you think the forced imposition of a system I disagree with in every way is somehow an example of minimising the use of force against me? I do not want to have money forcibly removed from me and to have every aspect of my life regulated in ways I am completely at odds with. I also do not not want to live in a shed and to pay a large proportion of my earnings to the shed owner. Why is one somehow better than the other? They are the same. The deal being offered to me is not even minimally acceptable, but what can I do about it other than pay up? I will soon encounter force from those demanding tribute as soon as I cease to pay. Do you deny this? Why not just make tax voluntary after all?
    “Is it possible that I could find myself living in a society determined to do something entirely objectionable to me? Of course. Is that society likely to be the best possible society for the people living in it? I think not.”
    “Society” (i.e. some other people sharing the geographical area where I happen to live) is determined to force things upon me that are entirely objectionable to me. Unless your argument about the best possible society only applies to you and the things you think are desirable, this means current societal organisation is a failure. Only one person needs to disagree based on the argument above for this to be the case. For this reason it isn’t really an argument. Every enforced kind of societal organisation will always fail by this measure. You are just pleading for me to agree that things aren’t really that bad and that I should be happy. I do not agree. Things are terrible.
    “Rather than the impossible (and in practice entirely hypocritical) aim of eliminating force from society, we should be aiming to minimise it.”
    The entirely achievable goal is the elimination of institutionalised force Mark, i.e. government. You can eliminate society too while you are at it. After all what is it other than a rhetorical device used by people to justify their use of force against others?
    “Anyway, I ask you once again, where do your acceptable rules come from and what makes you think they don’t require force?”
    I repeat, acceptable rules are the ones that freely choosing individuals choose. Given a free choice among freely choosing peers forming a “society”, what would you agree to? What wouldn’t you agree to? Would you let someone else (for example, me) make the decision for you?

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  39. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    Sufferers of Aspergers syndrome certainly have my sympathy. For them, living with others, being forced to interact with those they cannot understand, the incomprehensible social rituals – all of this must constitute a form of torture. Indeed, for some of them, the discomfort might be so acute as to constitute the eqivalent of actual physical torture.
    It is my personal opinion, and I think the natural reaction of most people, that we should try our best to accomodate them and allow them a comfortable life – perhaps a little room with a computer somewhere, pizza delivery etc.
    However, unfortunately this desire to help does not, and can not, extend to redesigning our political/economic systems to fit in with their conception of the world.
    There are two reasons for this. Firstly, their lack of empathy makes it difficult for them to understand that others have different feelings to them, makes it difficult for them to understand their own feelings – and no matter the extent to which their own hatred of social interaction might lead them to decry the pointless society which causes them nothing but trouble – someone needs to deliver the pizzas.
    Although they don’t realise it, we not only need society to live in the manner to which we are accustomed, we need it to live full stop. (This may change in the future – at that point of super abundance, perhaps all discussions of society become moot.) Simply, their condition might lead them to miscalculate and to be wrong.
    Secondly, they are different to us. The society in which they believe they will be happy, might be one in which everyone else is unhappy. At this stage, force is the deciding factor.

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  40. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    If you will allow, let us take a little trip to imagination land.
    I can imagine a lunatic for whom the sight of umbrellas is as unpleasent an experience as being made to live in a shed, or being anally raped. I believe we should feel sorry for this man – we should try to give him conditions in which he can be happy. But if he insists that all umbrellas must be destroyed – should we abide by his opinion? If he insists in destroying all the umbrellas he can find, there is no choice in the end but to use force to contain him.
    Let’s imagine a man for whom the use of electricity or proximity to electricity is anathema. For him, having electricity within a 5 km radius of his person is the eqivalent to being waterboarded. In the end, we will have to subject him to the torture, simply because the world he wishes to live in is so different to the one we wish.
    That is deeply unfortunate – we will have two deeply unhappy people being continually subjected to a form of torture. But there is actually no alternative to this. Where people have differing opinions and neither one can compromise, the issue will be decided by force.
    Let us return to reality. In practice, beliefs such as those above are the result of mistakes rather than fundamental differences in preferences. Lunatics don’t hate umbrellas, they hate umbrellas because they believe they are mind reading devices. They don’t hate electricity for its own sake, they hate it because they think it causes cancer.
    You almost certainly don’t hate taxation to the same degree you hate hunger or physical torture or being constrained to one space. You hate taxation because of the effects you believe it has on your life – I believe you are mistaken. This is the argument we should be having, but unfortunately we can never get to it because of silly objections about force.

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  41. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    Now, about this force issue. A lesson in logic.
    You oppose the use of force in society because you believe that there will be no disagreement between rational, freely choosing men – that we don’t need it.
    Therefore, if I can identify a disagreement that would arise between rational freely choosing men, your ideas are wrong.
    You- “People with more than x or the ability to generate more than x (or even the hope that they might one day get more than x) will never rationally choose that everyone should be furnished with x by force”
    Me- People with less than x, or more importantly the fear that one day they might have less than x, will rationally choose that everyone should be furnished x by force.
    Rational, freely choosing people disagree, therefore your ideas are wrong.
    (assuming that you aren’t just a complete hypocrite who defines force as “stuff I don’t like”)
    Now, on the other hand, if you imagine a man who would strongly disagree with my ideas and would therefore have to be contained by force, my idea, that fundamental disagreements are solved by force, is right.
    If you could show that large numbers of people have strongly opposed preferences and cannot be persuaded to compromise, my idea that force can be minimised would be wrong. But then – if there are large numbers of people with strongly opposed preferences, your idea about rational men coming to agreement is also going to be wrong.
    The important take home here, is that you are wrong.

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  42. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    “You- “People with more than x or the ability to generate more than x (or even the hope that they might one day get more than x) will never rationally choose that everyone should be furnished with x by force”
    Me- People with less than x, or more importantly the fear that one day they might have less than x, will rationally choose that everyone should be furnished x by force.
    Rational, freely choosing people disagree, therefore your ideas are wrong.”
    In a sitiuation where everyone has the choice to choose the rules they wish to live by, nobody gets to choose for everyone else Mark. The only situation where someone is able to choose for anyone else is where that choice is freely and voluntarily given to that other person. In other words your argument misses the point spectacularly.
    I repeat again, acceptable rules are the ones that freely choosing individuals choose. Given a free choice among freely choosing peers forming a “society”, what would you agree to? What wouldn’t you agree to? Would you let someone else (for example, me) make the decision for you?

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  43. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    “It is my personal opinion, and I think the natural reaction of most people, that we should try our best to accomodate them and allow them a comfortable life – perhaps a little room with a computer somewhere, pizza delivery etc.
    However, unfortunately this desire to help does not, and can not, extend to redesigning our political/economic systems to fit in with their conception of the world.”
    If you and those agreeing with you are willing and feel able to provide every person suffering from Aspergers with a room, a computer and pizza delivery then by all means go ahead and do so. I wasn’t aware that dawdling in the pub and going fishing was so lucrative.
    Similarly if people suffering from Aspergers wish to spend their lives hiding from others then more power to them.
    No need for anyone else to be forced to do anything. No need to design (let alone redesign) anything.

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  44. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    “You almost certainly don’t hate taxation to the same degree you hate hunger or physical torture or being constrained to one space.”
    I certainly do

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  45. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    “You oppose the use of force in society”
    Yes
    “because you believe that there will be no disagreement between rational, freely choosing men”
    No
    “- that we don’t need it.”
    “We” don’t need it
    “A lesson in logic”
    Seriously?

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  46. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    The basis for this discussion is to discover whether it is valid to criticise a social system on the grounds that it requires force. If every social system requires force and society is necessary, I would say it is not a valid criticism.
    You are currently vascilating between two arguments – firstly, that you have a social system in which force is not necessary and secondly, that we “can eliminate society”.
    The first is wrong and the second is mad.
    referring you to the above;
    “Although you don’t realise it, we not only need society to live in the manner to which we are accustomed, we need it to live full stop. (This may change in the future – at that point of super abundance, perhaps all discussions of society become moot.)”
    We need to have some basis for the organisation of individuals for both economic and personal reasons – heed the lesson of “I pencil” – we need some method of working together to make things. Further, most people won’t be happy sitting in a room on their own. You can call this organisation “a ham sandwich” if you like, I shall stick with the convention of calling it “society”.
    Now, you have told me that the form of organisation of which you approve is based upon the principle of “natural property that they have in their person “, but also, confusingly, that your system is not based on natural principles – “What do natural principles have to do with anything?”
    You have also told me that “acceptable rules are the ones freely choosing individuals choose”. And that, “In a sitiuation where everyone has the choice to choose the rules they wish to live by, nobody gets to choose for everyone else”… “Some people proposing what some other people should be able to have and do is obviously not an example of a universal ethic because only some people get to decide the rules”
    So, if the system is not based on natural principles, outside of the decision making process, and the only acceptable rules are ones which freely choosing individuals choose, how do we get to the system where “nobody gets to choose for everyone else”, if such a system will leave some freely choosing individuals worse off and they will therefore not choose that system?
    If all principles must be choosen and if some disagree with the principle “nobody gets to choose for others”, how can we arrive at it without someone else choosing it for them?

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  47. Mark Avatar
    Mark


    “You almost certainly don’t hate taxation to the same degree you hate hunger or physical torture or being constrained to one space.”
    I certainly do”
    I think this is the internet argument equivalent of an insanity plea.

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  48. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    “So, if the system is not based on natural principles, outside of the decision making process, and the only acceptable rules are ones which freely choosing individuals choose, how do we get to the system where “nobody gets to choose for everyone else”, if such a system will leave some freely choosing individuals worse off and they will therefore not choose that system?”
    Freely choosing individuals are free to choose whatever system suits them. The only thing freely choosing individuals are not free to do is choose for other freely choosing individuals, since all freely choosing individuals are free to choose whatever they want, rather than what you or someone else wants them to want.
    What would you choose?
    “If all principles must be choosen and if some disagree with the principle “nobody gets to choose for others”, how can we arrive at it without someone else choosing it for them?”
    If some people disagree with the principle of not choosing for other people then they are free to let someone else choose for them. Nobody is choosing that people make their own choices, it is merely the reality of human existence without coercion. If you don’t like it then your first and only choice can be to resign your autonomy and voluntarily accept the control of someone else. Otherwise having control over the choices of other people can only be achieved through force.
    It is internally inconsistent to argue for the property rights of those that do not respect property rights.

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  49. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    “firstly, that you have a social system in which force is not necessary and secondly, that we “can eliminate society”.”
    I reject what you think of as society.

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  50. Tomsmith Avatar
    Tomsmith

    “I think this is the internet argument equivalent of an insanity plea”
    I think this is irrelevant

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Tom is a retired international lawyer. He was a partner in a City of London law firm and spent almost twenty years abroad serving clients from all over the world.

Returning to London on retirement in 2011, he was dismayed to discover how much liberty had been lost in the UK while he was away.

He’s a classical liberal (libertarian, if you must) who, like his illustrious namesake, considers that

“…government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one.”

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