THE LAST DITCH

Union ‘has cost Scotland £64bn over 30 years’ | The Sunday Times.

Let me be clear. Since I overheard a ned pour vile anti-English hatred into the ear of his toddler son at the Wallace Memorial some years ago, I have been in favour of Scottish Independence. I realised that poor, innocent little boy was going to grow up hating me and my own innocent children no matter what we do. I love Scotland and my Scottish friends but for so long as the Scottish masses can ignorantly blame England for everything, it is a country that will never grow up. The Scottish Nation needs to stand alone and realise that life is difficult, requires unsavoury amounts of work and that nothing comes for free in the end.

I fear independence only because of the incompetence of the people who will negotiate it from the English side. The linked article in the Sunday Times for example almost blew my stack before I even got out of bed this morning. It suggests that an independent Scotland would be better off because it would walk away from the UK's national debt, dumping it on the taxpayers of England and Wales. This is outrageous, immoral and thus in every way typical of Scotland's rapacious attitude to the English. 

Scotland applied on its knees to join the United Kingdom. It was bankrupt following the failure of the Darien Venture (itself a folly driven by envy of England). England did not conquer Scotland. We bailed it out. We paid off its own national debt at the time and never a word of thanks have we had for it.

At the time of the Acts of Union, we English had no national debt to speak of. The current debt is that of the United Kingdom. If Scotland chooses independence it must be divided between the two new nations on some fair and equitable basis. As we have been funding public expenditure largely (and madly) from debt since the creation of the Welfare State and since a disproportionate part of that expenditure is in Soviet Scotland, I suggest the Barnett Formula should play some part in that calculation. As Wikipedia explains it;
"…if a UK-wide per capita average were a notional 100%, identifiable per capita expenditure on services in England would be 97% and the Scottish amount 117%…"
That's how the debt was run up. That is how it should be allocated. As the new Scotland would have nothing like the credit rating of the current United Kingdom, it would cost rather more per capita to service its smaller share too. Properly negotiated, independence will welcome Scottish taxpayers back from economic la-la land. Not before time.

24 responses to “Why I fear Scottish independence”

  1. SimonFa Avatar
    SimonFa

    When I joined the Army as an apprentice aged 15 the very proud Scots Guards Sergeant Major and equally proud Welsh Squadron Clerk made it clear to one and all that when filling out our nationality we were Brit/Eng, Brit/Scot etc. Throughout most of my career there was always much brotherly rivalry but we were all the same nationality.
    At that time I used to support my fellow nationalities at sporting events, unless it was against England, and they would usually do the same except for the own country when playing England. To me the ideal World Cup was the four home nations in the semi finals and I didn’t care who England beat in the final. I appreciated even then, though, that I was being a bit rosy eyed.
    Since leaving 22 years ago I have witnessed a major change in the attitude of the Scots and a minor one in the Welsh. Now it’s ABE (Anybody But England) and they don’t even hide their contempt for the English. I have also heard very credible reports of English people being abused and discriminated against, one being a friend from my Army days. Despite that I supported the Union and even dismissed English arguments against the Barnett Formula as inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.
    Since devolution I have become quite nationalist and for that I blame Tony Blair for not having the balls to address the West Lothian question, but I understand why he couldn’t. Just recently I have been working on a Govt project as an industry specialist and I have seen up close how the nations work the system. As son as the money was announced they were on to the senior civil servant, a very good and strong leader, demanding their fair share. Fortunately we have some very clear and objective targets based on analysis that has to be legally followed. That still doesn’t stop them though. After one meeting one of the manager’s from our supplier asked who was looking after the English after he had witnessed the very strong arm twisting from the three nations.
    Unfortunately I don’t see independence as the problem; yes there will be lots of arm wrestling and I don’t doubt that we English will be worse off. No, what I really fear is a close result and our political class bow to demands for Devo Max or whatever they are calling it now. Its hard to see a Labour Government, propped up by its Scotland MPs and its Scottish MPs who represent English constituencies addressing the West Lothian Question. And to keep them quiet ever more concessions will be made to Alex Salmond at the expense of the England based tax payer.
    Once that’s finished we’ll have the Welsh bleating that they want the same and we are going to be worse off.
    I just don’t see a scenario where we English aren’t going to be a lot worse off in 5-years time.

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  2. Tom Avatar

    Sad though I will be to see the UK broken up, the only reason to fear that England will be worse off is if the negotiations are mishandled. Otherwise, our National Debt will go down, our costs of EU membership reduce, our oil revenues (as international maritime law puts many of the oilfields in English waters) diminish only a little and our subsidy of Scotland will end (provided we veto her entry to the EU). We will also be spared the leftist governments inflicted on us by Scots voters. It’s a shame and it’s unutterably stupid for Scotland, but England should not suffer, especially if we refuse to play along with the SNP’s arrogant plan to use sterling as Scotland’s currency. A more likely scenario for England to suffer is that our government bribes Scottish voters not to vote for independence with lots more devolutionary “power without responsibility”.

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  3. Moggsy Avatar
    Moggsy

    I think it would be a shame for Britain to cease to be. I think it was ‘great’ because of the strength of the different strands of Britishness. Scots, Welsh, English, Irish, North, South, East, West. I know the EU would like to see it broken up into region size chunks. I am sure there are plenty of pind sised low grade politicians would like to be big frogs in little ponds.
    What you said about national debt makes good sense, but I think the UK and the people in it would be better united. People ought to be fighting hard to remain British and not let an agenda be pushed for what I can’t help but feel are interests set against the ordinary British citizen’s interests.

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  4. Sackerson Avatar

    Isn’t this to do with the EU’s plan to make us militarily indefensible, culturally and politically disunited and financially bankrupt?

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  5. Captain Ranty Avatar

    Make no mistake: Scotland is NOT voting for independence. She is voting for continued dependence on a foreign power. On September 18th 2014, a vote for ‘Independence’ is also a hidden vote to remain in the EU. We will swap one perceived yoke for another, far more sinister one.
    Almost none of the Nationalists will openly admit this. Salmond has lied, lied, and lied again about the EU and Scotland’s ambitions post-independence.
    So far we have no answers on currency, defence, oil & gas, renewables (apart from lies), a monarch, border control, immigration, and a whole swathe of other, equally vital questions.
    There is some light at the end of this dark, dark tunnel: on 26th November the long awaited White Paper on Independence will be issued.
    It will be worth reading for entertainment if nothing else…
    CR.

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  6. David B. Wildgoose Avatar
    David B. Wildgoose

    There must be provisions made for if the Scots vote Yes – because it would cause turmoil and uncertainty internationally if the dis-United Kingdom were suddenly rudderless. I wrote about this nearly 2 years ago on the English Standard website: “It Pays to Be Prepared”
    http://www.englishstandard.co/2012/01/it-pays-to-be-prepared-what-if-the-scots-vote-yes-for-independence-2/

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  7. Tom Avatar

    I agree, it's a shame. But precious few Scots want in to the Union now on equal terms. Even the "unionists" want special treatment; devolution, extra local spending without extra taxes. So they are not really unionists, are they? Britons never never never shall be slaves, so if they are unwilling they must go. 
    Sent from my iPad

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  8. Tom Avatar

    The Commission lawyers have already spoken on this. Leave the member state and you leave the EU. Scotland will have to apply and the legacy UK will have a veto. Salmond was caught out lying about this, saying he had legal advice to the contrary. He has now admitted that he didn't and it is just assumed the application will be waved through. The UK should veto it, pointing out that the Eastern European States were required to demonstrate they were viable independent states before they were allowed to join. When Scotland was last independent it was a failed state. It needs to prove its viability first. 

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  9. Tom Avatar

    It certainly won’t do the last. In purely financial terms it will be as good for the English (if properly negotiated) as the break up of Czechoslovakia was for the Czechs.

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  10. Captain Ranty Avatar

    Tom,
    Yes, I remember all of his lies. He also said that renewables (his folly-riddled master plan) would create 26,000 new jobs. The actual number was an optimistic 2,000.
    I realise that once the Union is broken up Scotland will have to apply to (re)join The Stupid Club, but then I remember Greece. She just fiddled the numbers and presto! they were in.
    My fear is that we become Greece II in a few years time.
    CR.

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  11. Demetrius Avatar

    So what were the Trinitarians doing in Ayr in the late 13th Century? Were they trying to comfort those who had suffered due to the slave trading of certain of the local magnates?

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  12. SimonFa Avatar
    SimonFa

    CR,
    Make no mistake: Scotland is NOT voting for independence. She is voting for continued dependence on a foreign power.
    I’ve always found the that argument about wanting to leave UK but stay in EU perplexing. Scotland has a disproportionate say in Westminster and through that at least some voice in EU and doesn’t like it, but wants to swap it for no voice in EU.
    Now if UK voted to leave EU but is was swayed by England voting out then I could see a pro-EU argument for independence with EU.

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  13. Cascadian Avatar
    Cascadian

    We went through the same nonsense in Canada with Quebec, you can be assured that the welfare classes, political appointees and assorted teat suckers that number 50% plus in moist western democracies have no wish to stand on their own two feet, and no desire to risk their easy lifestyles.A referendum to seperate will therefore fail.
    You are, I am afraid, stuck with the whiners, as we are with Quebec.
    Best comment that I heard about the Quebecois-they want divorce with bedroom priveleges- ie seperation but(in a Scottish context) English currency, British passports and all that lovely money to support free prescriptions, education et al.
    When you consider it, it’s “hope and change” all over again, ignore reality and hope for the best.

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  14. Moggsy Avatar
    Moggsy

    Scotland will never have the weather Greece has ^_^

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  15. Moggsy Avatar
    Moggsy

    Hat tip to Greece II ^_^
    Scotland:
    “Whoa oh.. Baby, don’t you know it’s hard to let you go?”
    England:
    “Save all your dreams and keep me in your heart.”
    Scotland:
    “It hurts to say goodbye, no matter how I try.”
    England:
    “Love will survive even though we have to part.”

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  16. cuffleyburgers Avatar
    cuffleyburgers

    I would be sorry to see the UK broken up, and I am quite certain we will see a mishandled negotiation which will cost the English tax payer billions.

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  17. Lap Avatar
    Lap

    Can you give me a link? A lot of differing viewpoints have pervaded, and most say that scotland is in the EU and EU cannot expel citizens. Also, some academics have stated the new UK and Scotland will be treated as Co-Successor states. I hate to say it but, i don’t believe it.

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  18. james higham Avatar

    Scotland applied on its knees to join the United Kingdom. It was bankrupt following the failure of the Darien Venture (itself a folly driven by envy of England). England did not conquer Scotland. We bailed it out. We paid off its own national debt at the time and never a word of thanks have we had for it.
    You hit it by mentioning growing up, Tom. This is what they have not done. Feel a post coming on.

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  19. Tom Avatar

    As to the legal situation, http://goo.gl/3wnAW and http://goo.gl/4DTPTM. As to Salmond having lied (i.e. he said he had legal advice that Scotland would remain an EU member, but he had obtained no such advice), http://goo.gl/uWzHOO. The legal position is very simple. The UK is the member state. If Scotland leaves the UK there is one new state – Scotland – that is not a continuing member. When Germany was reunited, the DDR ceased to exist and became part of the continuing EU member state the BDR (Federal Republic of Germany). East Germany did not apply to join the EU. It became part of a member state. It is a logical corollary that if Scotland leaves a member state it ceases to be part of the EU. Remember that the EU is not a single legal territory. It is not a state as such (yet). It is a treaty organisation under international law. A first year law student could have told Salmond he was wrong.

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  20. saxon realist Avatar
    saxon realist

    Scotland should have nothing to fear from a vote for self-determination. It is a energy and water powerhouse and that with it’s low population density will ensure it’s success.
    England, particularly the south east, is over populated and short in both energy and water. The south east of England has benefitted for generations from the water, energy and ore rich areas of Britain, and is nothing more than a shopfront for the real wealth producing regions of Britain to display their wares.
    Dump England, it’s an overpopulated resource poor (relative to it’s dense population) and bankrupt state that is sliding into economic and military obscurity.

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  21. Tom Avatar

    What an outdated view. Are you a time traveller from Dickensian times? Only one city on these islands makes an overall net contribution to the Treasury.  "Dump the hinterland", might be a more rational (although still bonkers) riposte. B^) 

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  22. Bill Avatar
    Bill

    In 1707 Scotland bailed out England as they were in debt due to wars with France.
    The union wasn’t created because of Darien. You really need a good history book.

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  23. Perry de Havilland Avatar

    I have never seen the issue as one of ‘Scottish’ independence as much as ‘English’ independence.

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  24. Perry de Havilland Avatar

    If resources actually mattered much to national prosperity, Japan would be the poorest nation on earth.

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Tom is a retired international lawyer. He was a partner in a City of London law firm and spent almost twenty years abroad serving clients from all over the world.

Returning to London on retirement in 2011, he was dismayed to discover how much liberty had been lost in the UK while he was away.

He’s a classical liberal (libertarian, if you must) who, like his illustrious namesake, considers that

“…government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one.”

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