THE LAST DITCH

Economy: Can our fiscal austerity be economically justified? | Speaker's Chair.

I recently signed up to the new politics site, "the Speaker's Chair" but I can't see myself sticking with it for long. Do I even need to fisk the following unutterable tosh by young "independent voter," advocate of "social mobility" and promoter of "social equity" (yeah right, he's not a Labourite) Ben Szreter?

Our budget deficit is extremely large, but directly removing money from the economy through fiscal austerity is not a way to stimulate and secure economic recovery. While the Government is spending less on employment through large scale public sector redundancy (around 710,000 public sector workers will have been made redundant by 2017), this doesn’t mean they are saving money. Removing these people from the workforce, albeit potentially temporarily, means that their consumption will fall, they will receive government benefits and they will not pay tax whilst unemployed.

The idea that money not spent by the state is "removed from the economy" is startlingly stupid. The only money the state has is that taken by force from the productive (or their descendants, in the case of state spending funded by debt). There are no productive state enterprises any more (not that the ones we used to have were ever very productive anyway). The state creates no wealth of any kind. The public sector is pure cost – some of it necessary cost – but cost nonetheless.

Removing non-essential workers from the public payroll liberates them for productive work. Of course, there's no guarantee they will get it, in an economy devastated by such idiotic thinking as Szreter's, but at least there's a chance. Some of them might even become desperate enough to start businesses; thus saving their souls and boosting the economy by creating wealth. The Blair/Brown regime created almost one million new 'jobs' in the public sector. Even if Szreter's numbers are right (and given the prevalence of the frankly corrupt practice of paying off public servants and then re-hiring them elsewhere in the state apparatus, I doubt it) the Coalition are not even coming close to scaling that back.

Unless the unemployment benefits of sacked public sector workers are greater than their salaries, there is a clear saving. As for the nonsense about the taxes they will not be paying, give me a break. They only ever "paid taxes" from money given to them by the only real taxpayers; i.e. those in the productive sector. Or, to put it another way, money they were given to pay taxes is also part of the saving achieved by sacking them, at least to the extent of the churn involved; i.e money lost on administration costs in paying out and taking back the part of their wages designated "tax"

PUBLIC SECTOR TAXES ARE A FICTION. If we can get nothing else into the statists' thick heads during these difficult times, please let it be that. And as for their lost purchasing power – it was taken by force from their fellow-citizens anyway. To the extent that it was not funded by debt, it will re-emerge elsewhere. To the extent it WAS funded by debt that's just us doing to our children and grandchildren what our welfarist grandparents and parents did to us.

Somewhere a line has to be drawn, because the more delicate issue is this. What if the economy is beyond stimulating into recovery? What if we are seeing the chickens of the Welfare State finally coming to roost? How are we going to cut our coat according to our cloth if so many of our voters are as blind as young Ben Szreter? And how, as he is young enough to be saved, are we going to rescue him from this craziness and make an honest, productive fellow of him before it's too late?

40 responses to ““Can our fiscal austerity be economically justified?” Yes, rather.”

  1. Cascadian Avatar
    Cascadian

    We should have some sympathy for young Ben, he appears to be fresh from grade-inflated secondary ejyukation headed towards a probably useless study of history. Not unusually, he is spouting the tosh that has been presented to him by infantilised socialist teachers.
    His generation is now approximately a century removed from the last mercantilist economy in the UK. Likely even his parents and grandparents have no recollection of a burgeoning private sector. How could he even comprehend such an economy.
    Cradle-to-grave socialism is so engrained in the UK that only a perverted Keynsian theory fits the narrative when discussing modern economics, thus we have the nonsense of discussion of an expanded public sector as “growth”.
    Of course the entire European economy is immersed in the same dangerous thinking, USA, Canada and Australia are dangerously close to it, it would seem that the lessons of Soviet Russia have not been learned.

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  2. MickC Avatar
    MickC

    Tullet Prebon issued a research note entitled “Project Armageddon” some while ago which concluded that there is a realistic possibility the UK will not recover in any meaningful form.
    It is well worth reading-but a glass or two of whisky afterwards is useful to try to restore some optimism (and leave the service revolver in the desk drawer).

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  3. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    Sorry, but your post is completely ridiculous.
    What possible basis could you have for thinking that only the “private sector” can create wealth, except your own arbitrary definition?
    For you tell us that “the public sector is pure cost, necessary cost, but cost nonetheless”. So, in your world, producing unnecessary things in the private sector produces more wealth than providing necessary things in the public? Weird.
    The majority of government spending is made up of transfer payments, anyway.
    I also have to disagree with your view of the monetary system. The only money we have is that created by banks through loans or by the government. We do not generally have the power to create our own money. So if the number of loans issued by banks is declining and the government increases taxes or reduces spending, then the amount of money in the economy will be reduced.

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  4. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    BTW, I do agree with reducing public sector employment, but not so people can do something more productive, like producing bubble blowers, in the private sector.
    We should welcome a reduction in full time employment as it gives people more time to go fishing, play rugby or comment on blogs.
    Increase unemployment benefit and stop this ridiculous campaign to get everyone doing pointless things just because some of us have to work.

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  5. Moggsy Avatar
    Moggsy

    Tom, Not much to disagree with there.
    Mark, The post is anything but ridiulous. Tho I do agree that not just the private sector can create wealth, just that the public sector tends not to, or does it inefficiently because of ideology rather than using what actually works.
    I agree that working properly the state part of the education system adds value. But it looks like people get educated in the UK these days despite the education system.
    Education does not have to be state provided tho. Effextive education in the long term improves an economy.
    The majority of Government expenditure is servicing the social security bill and interest payments.
    You say “The only money we have is that created by banks through loans or by the government” You are kidding right? That is called debt.
    You don’t seem to get the idea of wealth creation, what it is or adding value. That comes through clever ideas and work.

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  6. Tom Paine Avatar

    Thank you for your comment. I would be very interested to know your definition of “wealth.” I suspect, like politicians who describe high-earners as “rich” you confuse income with capital.
    Of course the necessary parts of the public sector (armed forces, police, judiciary) deliver – albeit with public sector levels of efficiency – valuable services that would otherwise have to be paid for one way or another, but the current public sector – while it may supplement the income of the state’s favoured groups – simply cannot add to national wealth/capital. It is pure cost. No enterprise can be run without costs, but they are always to be kept to a minimum.
    As for your comment about money, the state can issue all the tokens it likes, but if they do not fairly represent real assets in the economy they will end up, one way or another, as kindling.

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  7. Tom Paine Avatar

    Reading your first comment I thought you were genuine, but misguided. This comment rather blows your cover. Who gets to choose who relaxes and who slogs to generate the income they live on? That anyone should advocate incentivising people into idleness using funds extorted by force from the active beggars belief as surely as it would beggar (and indeed already is beggaring) the nation.
    Where do you get off, by the way, deciding that making children happy by producing bubble blowers their parents are happy to pay for is “pointless” whereas going fishing at the expense of your fellow-citizen is meritorious? Personally I find it ridiculous that the market values footballers more than lawyers, but I would rather accept the judgement of my fellows expressed through their choices of expenditure than rely on a committee staffed by self-important lackbrains.

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  8. mark Avatar
    mark

    My definition of wealth? Um… at the most basic level, I guess “good stuff” would do. Obviously when I think of an individual’s wealth I tend to think of things which can be sold on the market, but I’m not sure if it makes sense to have such a narrow definition when talking about the wealth of the nation as a whole.
    To be honest, my recent experience of service in Britain, both public and private, has been so terrible lately, I have a very hard time believing that a lot of the work going on in the UK adds much value to anything. Yes, there is a lot of waste in the public sector, no, the private sector isn’t better.
    I might disagree with the way the education system is operated, but it doesn’t mean that public education cannot benefit the nation.

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  9. mark Avatar
    mark

    As for money, if the amount of money in the system is being reduced, how are people supposed to do business, even if they want to?
    At the moment we have productive capacity laying idle so providing the meansvto buy things will increase production, and more production means more assets.

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  10. mark Avatar
    mark

    Money is debt. That it is all it ever be!

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  11. mark Avatar
    mark

    Well yes, we should do away with unemployment benefit in entireity and switch to a citizens basic income. If you want to get more than the minimum you can work for it- but the idea that unproductive workers should be castigated and forced into doing things which don’t benefit anyone very much is anathema to me.
    When people buy things, they often don’t think very much at all. Why shouldn’t we speak our minds when people blindly do ridiculous things? Why does an opinion become more valuable just because it is linked to a financial transaction?

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  12. Cascadian Avatar
    Cascadian

    Money is a common means of transaction, nothing more……”I promise to pay the bearer on demand…” It is possible that you do not understand that because money these days is not backed by anything intrinsically “valuable” such as gold.
    You seem to be as confused by the definition of “debt” as gordoom brown.

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  13. mark Avatar
    mark

    If I have a ten pound note it means that someone in society owes me a pizza. That is, because of (presumably) something I have done, society owes me a debt.
    Whether or not a currency is “backed ” by gold in no way changes this function.

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  14. Tom Paine Avatar

    You are not asking to speak your mind (which you are welcome to do, educational as it is for us all to watch it in action). You are asking to control other peoples’ choices – to designate some as valid and others invalid, according to some scale of value of your own. I have bought plenty of bubble blowers in my time and never regretted the purchase. What’s that to you? If you claim to be so much wiser, how are we to decide who is to decide? By democracy, perhaps? That is, the same idiots you denigrate for their choices as to their own money making irresponsible choices about other peoples? Surely you can see that’s not working?

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  15. Cascadian Avatar
    Cascadian

    mark you are confused. Nobody in society owes you anything, despite what you may have been taught.
    I perceive you may have received an edjukayshun recently in yUK therefore I understand.

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  16. mark Avatar
    mark

    Where did I say people shouldn’t but bubble blowers?
    I said people shouldn’t be forced to work making them.

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  17. Tom Paine Avatar

    Actually you are saying that others should be forced to give even more of the proceeds of their work to the state so it can pay former bubble blower workers to go fishing.

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  18. Moggsy Avatar
    Moggsy

    Mark, Cascadian is right. Money is only “debt” in the sense that it is an agreed symbol of value given but not realised yet.
    It is stored work, like a wound spring.
    Nobody owes you that Pizza, you still have to strike an agreement, make a contract, they don’t have to sell it to you.
    Money is just a convient way to avoid the hassle of having to barter with the Pizza guy. You making a deal to wash up for him for an hour and he cooks you a Pizza.

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  19. mark Avatar
    mark

    Sure, on an ethical level you might argue that people have a right not to sell me a pizza, but on a practical level you must acknowledge that they do. It is an IOU from society – a form of debt.
    And is accepted by a lot of people for whom I have never personally done anything, because it has a broader social value.

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  20. mark Avatar
    mark

    Not even more – probably less. But basically, yes.

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  21. Tom Paine Avatar

    Let’s call that a confession, shall we? You are on the side of the gangsters who have jacked half of all the proceeds of my life’s work (and plan to take 45% of whatever’s left when I die) because you hope they will reward you with a taste. At least you are honest and don’t moralise about it. Thanks for that at least.

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  22. mark Avatar
    mark

    why do you work?

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  23. Cascadian Avatar
    Cascadian

    I’m interested mark, where did you learn this ?

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  24. Tom Paine Avatar

    To be independent. Because I don’t believe I have the right to demand that others work to keep me and my family. Why do you not want to work?

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  25. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    I’m a semi-skilled worker in the private sector and I don’t feel my work contributes anything very worthwhile to anyone. I also don’t think it is possible for a person to live independantly of others, especially a modern person.
    Finally, I think that since my work is such a small part of my customers life, and yet such a large part of mine, there is a danger in giving them absolute power over what I do.
    I think the danger that consumers don’t really care about what they are consuming increases as we supply basic needs more and more easily.
    Despite this, I do want to work. I’m fully prepared to admit that I might have it wrong and my work is of value to others. i just don’t like the fact that I am forced to work and have no other choice.

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  26. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    Through living!
    But it was also well covered in Debt: the first 5000 years by David Graeber

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  27. Cascadian Avatar
    Cascadian

    Thank you for the introduction to David Graeber, not a name I was familiar with.
    I spent an hour googling him and listening to various interviews, admittedly that is not exhaustive research.
    I consider myself extraordinarily concerned about the world monetary situation and its management by the likes of Lagarde, Bernanke and the IMF, and would welcome a radical change in its operation, I am not yet ready to adopt a realignment based on the confused thinking of a member of the Industrial Workers of the World.
    It did confirm my opinions on contemporary edjukayshun though.

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  28. mark Avatar
    mark

    In that case, I would also recommend “billy blog” or “modern monetary theory”.
    Most of the proponents of these ideas are left wing, but there is nothing fundamental in their theories about money which requires a replacement of markets with state control.
    Graebner’s book had many positive things to say about the free market economics of medieval islam… as much as that might mean to you…
    I can’t comment upon his politics… But i certainly do reccomed that you at least give a chance to the book, which largely outlines anthropological/ historical findings rather than his own politics and makes quite an interesting read.

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  29. Tom Paine Avatar

    Mark, if you feel that about your job, that’s sad and you should find another one or start a business. Your work has value or no-one would volunteer to pay for it, but you are entitled to seek job satisfaction too. As for that choice, we would all like it but the only honest way to get it is to generate more, not less, wealth. Advocating systems where armed groups (whether gangsters or governments) use force to steal the work of others and give it to you is not the ethical way.

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  30. Cascadian Avatar
    Cascadian

    I am going to plead close-minded here, Graebner is just too much of a socialist and in my opinion the world monetary supply is already controlled by left-wing bureaucrats. To rescue international finance we need to be moving away from their ideas as well as the concept of too-big-to-fail banks. A dose of failure might well be the medicine required.
    We have seen the effect of socialist experiments (and are living them presently in the USA) they never end well particularly for the much-vaunted workers they presume to represent. Unless of course we define success as making everybody trillionaires and printing ten trillion dollar banknotes as is happening in Zimbabwe.Britains flirtation with socialism ended disastrously during Jim Callaghans tenure.
    I commend you at least for searching for other solutions, I just beleive you to be on the wrong track, no doubt you hold the same opinion of me.

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  31. mark Avatar
    mark

    But why is it preferable to have a system in which everyone is forced to work in order to satisfy largely insignificant or artificially generated needs, compared to one in which some people might be encouraged to supply the real needs of everybody?
    If you won’t give people money, if you won’t allow that people should have a right to live without work, then they are being forced to work,

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  32. mark Avatar
    mark

    Well, I don’t know about all of that, but I’m a bit worried that economic failure could lead to moral and social failure as well, if we continue to stress money as the ultimate moral arbiter.
    I shall most certainly continue searching…

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  33. Tom Paine Avatar

    Never did I see a more intellectually dishonest use of a word as yours of “encourage” or, for that matter, “force”. As to the latter, who is forcing whom? Who forces you to breathe if you want to stay oxygenated or to drink if you don’t want to die of thirst? Is it the same person or conspiracy that forces you to earn your bread? It is life itself that you bemoan, Mark, not the actions of your fellow man.

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  34. Tom Paine Avatar

    I think you have that the wrong way round. Our economic failures are the product of our amoral quest for owt for nowt. Economic outcomes are just (more or less accurate) measurements, without which little can be explained. You are coming close to Merkel’s ridiculous assertion of the primacy of politics over economics, which is as daft as claiming that tape measures should vary with her waistline.

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  35. Moggsy Avatar
    Moggsy

    Mark, I think you think you know what you are talking about, but having listened to all you said I think you have maybe confused yourself and can’t see the economic wood for the theoretical trees ^_^ so are seeing things a bit back to front.
    But I guess you have the vote so I owe it to the world to try to get you to smell the coffee.
    Pizza Guy does not have to sell, like you know landlords of PHs don’t have to. They can also set their own price.
    Money is a token a representation of work done or value given. Unless you steal it then it is exchanged as part of a contract. The value of any given thing depends on lots of things.
    The value of the tokens depends on the tokens matching what they are needed for and represent. Too many and you get inflation. too few is bad also.
    One of the problems at the moment is there is not enough, I guess you would say liquidity, cash flow. One of the main reasons for that is despite governments printing lots of extra money banks are not lending to each other because they don’t trust each other to be really solvent. How much bad debt are they hiding on their books, how much are they exposed mor epossible bad debt to Greek or Spanish or Italian debt? Direct or not so direct.
    Greece has borrowed more than it can ever hope to pay, It is never going to pay it back, no matter what it is called. It can’t even pay the interest and has already been let off a huge amount of the capital.

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  36. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    I think it is possible to give people a choice so unbearable that it isn’t really a choice at all. A man holding a knife to my throat is giving me a choice too – the same choice as a man who controls the food I desperately need.
    You might think this over the top – that is only because you think that work isn’t that bad. And I agree, it could be a lot worse. It could also be better.
    Having to obey social rules is an innevitable part of life – if I were to complain about the fact that I have to follow rules, I might be complaining about life.
    However, those rules are not fixed. There is certainly nothing inevitable about the idea that we must work, when our work does not contribute to our own consumption.

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  37. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    Personally, I think our economic problems are the result of excess supply – which is ridiculous considering that this should be a good thing.
    What were the solutions proposed to mass unemployment – to make more cars, to try and encourage people to borrow more and to try and prop up expensive house prices.
    Our problems are caused by our mad desire to do more and more even when it is worth nothing,
    Moggsy – Can you imagine a situation where a person with money couldn’t buy a pizza? What would it be?
    I actually agree with what you are saying, but if that is the case and we have a shortage of money, how is austerity going to help?

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  38. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    BTW
    there is no absolute neccesity that money be a token for work done, If I give money to my son in order for him to buy comic books, I do it because I love him, not because he did work for me.

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  39. Moggsy Avatar
    Moggsy

    Raises eyes to the heavens, Yes sure, if you say so – NOT!
    The money you give away is still basically a token of work done and you absolutely know it.

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Tom is a retired international lawyer. He was a partner in a City of London law firm and spent almost twenty years abroad serving clients from all over the world.

Returning to London on retirement in 2011, he was dismayed to discover how much liberty had been lost in the UK while he was away.

He’s a classical liberal (libertarian, if you must) who, like his illustrious namesake, considers that

“…government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one.”

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